NIC Chats Podcast with Kurt Read

Beth Mace: (00:04)
Hello and welcome to the NIC Chats podcast. My name is Beth Mace and I am NIC's chief economist. Thank you for joining us.

Beth Mace: (00:14)
The focus of the NIC Chats podcast is talking to interesting people that have ideas that I think you'd like to hear about. As you listen today, I hope that you'll find some humor, insights, inspiration, and hopefully what I call an aha moment when something pithy or insightful is said, and the light bulb may go off for you. Let me tell you a bit about the structure of today's event. First, I will tell you three statements about my guest, two of which will be true. Throughout the podcast you'll learn which is true and which is false. Second, there are three standard questions within each podcast for each speaker. The first is, what's the largest challenge facing our industry? Followed by a question about one thing we can do to grow talent in our industry. And third, what is one innovative way or idea to strengthen our industry now as they say on with the show. So I'm delighted that our NIC Chats podcast discussion today is with Kurt Read. Kurt is the founder, managing director and partner at RSF Partners, and he also serves as the chairman of NIC's board. Kurt, thank you for joining us today.

Kurt Read: (01:14)
Thanks, Beth. Good to talk to you as always.

Beth Mace: (01:18)
So, as mentioned, I have three statements about Kurt. Two of these are true and one is not, and you'll have to stay for the entire podcast to learn about these. So one statement is that Kurt herded sheep for Rupert Murdoch. One is that he once bought eight cases of wine for the Grateful Dead, and one is that he went bungee jumping with his wife on his honeymoon. So now stay tuned. So Kurt, tell us about RSF partners and your role at RSF.

Kurt Read: (01:48)
So, Beth, RSF's a real estate private equity fund business. We've been around for 25 years now. It's amazing how time flies. We usually have funds that are between 300 and 400 million, and we have a very broad mandate. So we can invest in any real estate asset class. I would characterize us though, as thematic investors, and one of the themes that we've invested in consistently over that 25 year period is senior living and care.

Beth Mace: (02:18)
So what do you or your team look for when you invest in senior housing or in skilled nursing, that's your area of focus.

Kurt Read: (02:26)
Yeah, so it's interesting. What we do is we start with the operator and we spend a lot of time with them trying to understand their goals and objectives. So I would say we are product type neutral and we focus on those operators and try and understand what their short, medium, and long-term goals are. And then we work backwards from there. And we partner and invest with folks that have usually a demonstrated track record of success in a relatively narrow business plan. So imagine somebody who is great at memory care in the Northwest, or is a skilled nursing developer in a CON state or a diversified platform in senior living that focuses on turning around poorly performing properties. All of those would be examples of business plans that we would work with the operator and design a capital program that would fit their needs.

Beth Mace: (03:29)
So you tend to be more programmatic investors. So when you find a partner you tend to stay with them for a period of time, is that right?

Kurt Read: (03:36)
Yeah. I mean, my partner, Chris Mahol, he actually moonlights as the real estate finance professor at the Graduate School of Business school. Both of us believe in having a few partners that we can be meaningful with each other. So we really are going to focus on only a couple of partners during the life of one of our funds.

Beth Mace: (04:05)
So it's about relationships.

Kurt Read: (04:07)
Absolutely. I mean, it starts with people, one of your notes at the beginning of this podcast was how do we develop talent? If you don't invest in, you know, companies and platforms that can develop, curate, attract, retain talent, you can't be successful in any operating business that uses real estate.

Beth Mace: (04:30)
And if I was someone new who was looking to be your partner, how does a new person coming along get to be a partner of RSF?

Kurt Read: (04:37)
You mean new to the business completely or new to...

Beth Mace: (04:42)
New to you.

Kurt Read: (04:42)
Oh new to us. Tell me about your business plan. What are your goals? Why do you have those as your goals? What's your track record? In other words, okay, my goal is to do X or Y or Z and here's what I've done to prove that I'm capable of it, but what I need is a capital partner that can help me get to that next level. I don't have the financial resources to get there on my own, and I need someone that can help me. And you know, what we do is we design programs and figure out how to partner with one another. We may end up doing financing for a partner, we may not. We may end up helping them with development, we may not. We may just be passive with certain people. So it depends on the needs and skills.

Beth Mace: (05:27)
Okay. So I think you view yourself sometimes as an opportunistic investor as well in more broadly commercial real estate. So what makes a good opportunity in that category of investment?

Kurt Read: (05:39)
We're thematic in that and we're value oriented in that. So, you know, one thing that's been difficult for us is we had a huge expansion increase in values from, let's call it 2010 to 2020 in commercial real estate. So we only picked out one material theme in that time period, and that was close in what I would call ugly small distribution buildings in major cities in Europe, particularly London and Paris. So that's a non-institutional play because institutions want to invest in huge class A assets. And we thought the right play in industrial was the last mile distribution play. You know, London and Paris, if you've ever been there, is terrible to drive around, they're desperately needing affordable housing. So they're tearing down industrial and building residential. So that's an example of a thematic or opportunistic play in the commercial real estate space. When capital markets get disrupted and the real estate market turns upside down, so whether that's '08 or, you know, in the healthcare real estate in '99, or if you go way back to the savings loan crisis in '91. We're also a deep value investor in commercial real estate. And we'll buy commercial real estate debt and assets at a discount, turn it around, sell it

Beth Mace: (07:09)
All right. So that just in time kind of theme that we have in industrial, especially good right now in the days of Amazon quick deliveries when people expect their services instantly.

Kurt Read: (07:20)
Exactly.

Beth Mace: (07:21)
I dream of something and it's at my door in a minute.

Kurt Read: (07:23)
There you go. Exactly.

Beth Mace: (07:25)
All right. So what are some of the things that get you most excited as you look into the future for RSF?

Kurt Read: (07:32)
Oh, I think we have an amazing platform in the senior living space. We have a team that's led by Sebastian Brown, Emma Rosen, Richard White. These are folks that have a long track record of, you know, managing, investing, developing, investing in the senior living business. and we have a great track record. So you're not producing very good net returns for your investors, you don't get to be in business for 25 years. So I think at this point in time where we see accelerating demand growth, we see capital markets being disrupted, we see the long-term view of senior living as very positive. I'm very excited about the team and the fact that we have capital and expertise at this pivotal time for our industry.

Beth Mace: (08:27)
So who are your investors?

Kurt Read: (08:30)
So we have two broad groups of investors. We have high net worth individuals, and we have family offices or multi-family offices. My prior private equity business had institutions like state pension funds. They come with a lot of what I'll call reporting baggage.

Beth Mace: (08:52)
They do. They do.

Kurt Read: (08:53)
And we decided that was not the right fit for the type of investing that we wanted to do. Scale also is important for those folks, and we wanted to keep our funds in the 300 million to 400 million range, and that suits those types of investors way better than the large institutional investors.

Beth Mace: (09:13)
That makes sense. Okay. Let's switch a little bit. So you've been the chair of NIC's board for well, you've been involved with NIC for many years. You've been on the executive committee for many years and now you've been the chair for the last several years. So thank you on behalf of NIC. Thank you for your leadership and your insights and your guidance and your patience. So this is a pretty long time commitment you've given to NIC. So why have you given so much time to this fairly small not-for-profit 501c3 organization?

Kurt Read: (09:44)
So the easiest answer is so I get to work with you.

Beth Mace: (09:47)
Oh!

Kurt Read: (09:50)
So besides the ability, the opportunity to work with Beth Mace and people like Bob Kramer and now Ray Braun, you know, I've had a very successful career investing in the senior living and care space, and I believe it's my responsibility and role to give back. And I am passionate about NIC's core mission and bringing, operators and capital together to provide more options for the frail elderly in the country. So it aligns with my need to give back and want to give back. And professionally, I think it's uniquely positioned to help our industry and help our nation's elders in the future.

Beth Mace: (10:42)
Okay. So what have been some of the initiatives that you're most proud of under your leadership?

Kurt Read: (10:48)
I hesitate to use the word proud. Let me say I was excited to really broaden NIC's mandate, broaden the tent, bring in different viewpoints in response to what I think of as external or exogenous factors. If you go back I guess five to seven years, Beth, we identified that there's external factors like the changing healthcare system, technology, the way the capital markets were evolving. There were a lot of external factors that...

Beth Mace: (11:28)
Labor markets.

Kurt Read: (11:29)
Labor markets. I mean, just so many things happening. It was clear that our industry needed to go from... If the '90's were sort of the first step, and then the 2000's were the second step, we needed to go to NIC 3.0. Leading the board, which is an amazing group of highly competent, very busy, engaged, passionate volunteers, in an effort to think about those forces and put in place a new strategic plan that would bring more people to our industry, different board members.

Kurt Read: (12:06)
We had independent board members we added, we brought more people from different, you know, whether it's from the ancillary businesses or the insurance business or other healthcare business, we brought more people to the table to understand what we're doing. We've got 3 million seniors that we're serving roughly and that is probably what I'm most excited about, is that plan that we collectively put in place. We approved it last year. And the fact that we actually have resources or an endowment, I guess, financial resources. So we're now in the position to act on the changes and to help NIC get to NIC 3.0, which I'm super excited about.

Beth Mace: (12:52)
So, as a little plug for recruiting additional volunteers, what's the benefit of being a volunteer for NIC?

Kurt Read: (12:59)
Oh, man, for me, it's obvious you get to engage intellectually, professionally with the most passionate, successful, excited entrepreneurs, financiers, managers in our industry. I mean, just that alone, being able to be on calls, sit in meetings with, engage with, debate, and then help all of that for a positive benefit for our industry. So you're feeling good, you're doing good. You're learning, you're challenging. I mean, to me, that as... Any volunteer, anybody thinking that they'd like to spend time volunteering, I think you get way more out of that than you would think going in. It's fantastic.

Beth Mace: (13:51)
Yeah, I agree. I was a volunteer for many years for NIC and now I'm on its staff. I'm a NIC believer, as they say in the mission of the organization. So let's go back to your true and false statements. So is it true or false that you once bought eight cases of wine for the Grateful Dead. Could that possibly be true?

Kurt Read: (14:14)
Could that possibly be true and the answer is yes, that is true. So I had a music, sound, light, and hospitality business in the early 80's. And when you have a hospitality business for the music industry, what you do is you sign a contract for people on tour and you provide food. In this case, beverages, adult beverages, and other things for the musicians when they're on tour. And the rider attached to the contract for the Grateful Dead specified, eight very specific cases of wine that needed to be in their dressing room when they arrived before their show.

Beth Mace: (14:55)
Eight cases is a lot of wine.

Kurt Read: (14:57)
I'm telling you. Okay. I had an old Cutlass Supreme piece of...

Beth Mace: (15:01)
I had that car.

Kurt Read: (15:02)
POS. Okay. I was in upstate New York doing this, and I couldn't find like half the wine list in upstate New York. So I had to drive down to the city, fill my car up with eight cases of wine, and hightail it back up to upstate New York to make it in time so the dressing room was filled with their, you know, whatever, Bojo do Luar Supremo. Anyway, it was it was an interesting little assignment.

Beth Mace: (15:30)
Well, at least it wasn't Cold Duck wine.

Kurt Read: (15:32)
There you go. No, no, these were very expensive bottles of wine.

Beth Mace: (15:36)
No doubt. Wow. So we'll talk about your other comments in a little bit. So let's talk about you for a little bit. Tell us about your career path. Obviously you started by delivering wine to the Grateful Dead, so that's a good start, but I think he did more than that. After you tell us a little bit about your career path, how did you choose or why did you choose to put your energies into this industry? What are the rewards and what surprised you?

Kurt Read: (16:02)
So I started out as an engineer and a programmer, coder. That's what you call 'em today. Right. And when I got outta school I didn't want to be, I decided I didn't want to sit in a basement write code all day. I wanted to go into business. I started out as a banker. During my training period as a banker right above the Harvard coop, for those of you who are now Harvard Square. My grandfather called me up and he said, Kurt, I know you're interested in real estate. I'm worried about my health. Your grandmother and I are looking at a retirement facility outside of Boston, in Needham, Massachusetts. I want you to come with me and I want you to listen to the pitch, and I want your thoughts. And he got me totally hooked.

Kurt Read: (17:00)
This was a not-for-profit group, and there were pictures and there were stories, and there were woods. And so listening to this pitch about how you plan for aging, frailty, and ultimately death, in a way that might suit your specific needs as a family was fascinating. As soon as I went through that with him, and we spent a ton of time together doing it, I was like, this is really interesting. So as a finance guy I went into private equity after learning to be a lender. Not doing lending, but learning to be a lender. And I went into private equity business. And what happened was the savings and loan crisis occurred just as I was a young person. And the opportunities quickly developed in real estate related operating businesses. So that was healthcare and hospitality. All the big money, the guys and women from New York, were buying office buildings and apartments and stuff. We did a little bit of that. The huge opportunity was to invest in these operating businesses, particularly hospitality and senior living. That's how I accelerated my interest in this that my grandfather had kindled.

Beth Mace: (18:24)
Wow. I don't think I knew that story. That's really interesting.

Kurt Read: (18:26)
So that company, the Hamstead Group, which was a private equity, you know back then, there wasn't anything called private equity. You were either a buyout fund or you were an opportunity fund. So we were a real estate opportunity fund, and we bought a public company called the Forum Group that had 26 CCRCs across the country and partnership with Apollo. We also backed a number of local operators who were developing products. We rolled that whole company up and sold it to Marriott in '97. Which was one of the most difficult and disappointing days of my career. I mean, financially was great, but we had a fabulous company and selling to Marriott... I was full of mixed emotions, and they did a very bad job running that company. So that was a disappointment.

Kurt Read: (19:19)
We also invested in Omega. Kept it public but we owned two thirds of the common stock of Omega because in '99, roughly 75% of their properties were run by bankrupt operators, and they were involved in their debt and they had 275 million of junk bonds coming due. So we recapitalized that company. So I had the opportunity earlier on in my career to be a director, investor, finance guy in both private companies and public companies in our space. And I just learned a ton about how to grow businesses, how to recapitalize them, the benefits and really frankly, the difficulties of being in our business and in the public markets. So that was a great start. And then in the late 90's and in early 2000's, I joined RSF. First as an operating partner, because believe it or not, I've been a developer and an operator as well as an investor. I was an operating partner and then joined the firm as partner.

Beth Mace: (20:30)
So let's go back to your grandparents there. So did they move into that property?

Kurt Read: (20:34)
Oh, yeah.

Beth Mace: (20:35)
And how did that work out?

Kurt Read: (20:37)
It's called North Hill. You know North Hill?

Beth Mace: (20:39)
Yeah.

Kurt Read: (20:39)
So yeah, they were one of the first, you know, in a CCRC you get to be a founder's club club member or whatever. Yeah. My grandfather thought that was cool. I can be a founder club member. So yeah, they spent the rest of their lives there.

Beth Mace: (20:55)
Nice, nice. All right. So thus far in your career, we've talked a little about things that have happened to you along the way and experiences. If you were talking to younger adults that might be listening to this podcast today, what advice would you give them?

Kurt Read: (21:10)
I think about what your goals and objectives are. Be frank with yourself. What is it that you want to try and accomplish? And then work backwards from there. The senior living business offers so many different opportunities. If you're interested in finance there's all sorts of... It's a very capital intensive real estate related business. So you're interested in finance, you got an opportunity to be a lender. If you're interested in being an investor, you have an opportunity to work for a company like RSF or Harrison Street or Pru or whatever. If you're interested in analysis, but you really want to get closer to the residents, there's a real need for folks that have an analytical bent in our operating environment. If you want to be closest to the residents and you want to be what I think of, you know, the people that foremost think about the care and need of the frail elderly, then absolutely. Operators need great talent at all different levels. Doesn't matter whether you want to be at the property or corporate or whatever. We have a great need for that. And because we have such a high need, that means there's enormous opportunity for growth and professional development. The labor part and attracting, you know, very talented young people is a key goal and objective of myself, NIC, and should be for everybody in our industry.

Beth Mace: (22:43)
Totally agree. So I know you have had a lot of experience in the hotel industry, so if you're looking at a young person and they're in the hospitality school, or trying to think, you know, should I go to the hotel area or senior housing, how would you advise them?

Kurt Read: (22:56)
That's a good question. I would say look around, look around the room, and of the 10 people that are your peers that are interested in hospitality, you're going to be the only one interested in senior living. So who has less competition and who has more opportunity? You do.

Beth Mace: (23:16)
Yep. Great. That's what I was hoping you were going to say. All right. So let's talk now a little bit more about the, the industry. And you and I have talked a lot about the challenges in the industry in the last few years, labor shortages, COVID-19 pandemic, inflation, now rising interest rates. What impact are they having on our industry and how is that changing your view, if at all, on where we are today and where the industry is heading?

Kurt Read: (23:42)
So it's not changed my view at all, Beth, and I think I've felt like a lone voice in the woods during what I'll call the boom times from 2010 to February of 2020. And that is our industry suffers from a lack of investment in capital in the operating side of the business. We have done an amazing job of attracting real estate capital at ever lower cap rates to our industry. So I give us an A+ from taking us from a nothing asset class to something that almost all institutional investors might consider at one point or the other. But the operating business, the result of that is the operators have a gut in real estate capital to grow their businesses. And a lot of times real estate investors aren't perfectly adapted to, nor are their goals and objectives aligned with investing in talent growth, IT, whatever you need to be successful at your business longer term.

Kurt Read: (24:58)
And that, I think, goes to your three questions, like, what's the biggest problem? Is it labor? How do we attract labor? I think they all run through this theme. And I will continue to beat the drum here that the way to maximize customer satisfaction, great care, and great financial returns, is to think about our business as an enterprise that cares for the frail elderly inside of real estate. There's all sorts of things going on on the healthcare side that don't even run through our P and L as Eric Morton, Carolyn Pearson, and you highlighted in that research report about roughly 60 to 65% of the, you know, total out-of-pocket costs that someone in assisted living in the US spend, you know, are on, that's only run through our P and L. There's 35% that, you know, we don't even engage with very well today. I think there's an enormous opportunity to bring all these threads together by thinking about the business differently than it has been over the last 12 years.

Beth Mace: (26:21)
So let's go a little deeper on that. And that's towards the integration of healthcare into senior housing and this has been a theme for NIC for several years. You've helped guide that. So what are some ways that you're thinking about this right now in 2023 post COVID-19 in terms of the integration of healthcare into the senior housing industry?

Kurt Read: (26:40)
I'm going to shy away from guessing or prognosticating what business plans are going to be the winners and losers here. But I would say a couple of broad topics. One is every operator needs to figure out their engagement strategy with the broader healthcare ecosystem. And it can be, I'm just going to provide a high quality real estate product and that's it. And I'm not going to, you know, have any relationship with them. But they need to be able to understand and engaged with it by understanding the way their residents are affected by it, the way they use it, the way it affects their wallet, their budget. Those are desperate needs. When I talked to a lot of folks, you know, they're like, gosh, I wish there were a one-stop shop for my residents to go to that would say, here are the financial implications. Here's how Medicare works. Here's how Medicaid works. Here's how your insurance works. Here's, you know, how you might think about budgeting. Do you have an attorney that you're doing estate planning with? You know, I mean, there are so many complicated financial and healthcare decisions that families and seniors need to understand. And, you know, it's all ad hoc, it's all put on the residents, their families. That just makes it really difficult for people to consider accepting and using our product because we don't help them and we don't put our product in context for the overall plan of how you age and how you die.

Beth Mace: (28:27)
Agreed. Well, we're talking like a concierge as well as someone who's helping you sort of navigate the system and figuring out what's best for you as an individual which usually falls on the adult daughter right now.

Kurt Read: (28:38)
Yes. Right. So that is a default option, which doesn't seem to be working very well to me. So I think, I don't know what the right idea is, Beth, but what NIC's job is to point out to capital providers and technologists and whoever, right, entrepreneurs, there's this massive need out there, massive opportunity, and somebody is going to figure out which is the right business strategy to take advantage of that. And so that's what's exciting to me, is bringing those entrepreneurs and opportunities together in our space.

Beth Mace: (29:18)
Okay. So let me ask, we've touched upon some of this. When I'm thinking about ways to grow talent in our industry, the largest challenge facing our industry and innovative ideas of how to strengthen the industry, what would be some of your thoughts on, on that? We've touched upon some of those, but anything else that sort of sticks out? So, growing talent.

Kurt Read: (29:37)
Yeah. Growing talent. I'm going to go back to another old saw of mine, which is data and transparency. So the hotel business in the early 90's was in crisis. You couldn't get a loan. Many loans were in default. Some hotel product was clear, was obsolete. You had all these new things being invented. The Residence Inn, the Embassy Suites, the Hampton Inn, the Courtyard. So if you owned a Holiday Inn with a Holidome, right, that smelled like chlorine and the new Marriott Residence Inn opens across the street, you're were toast. So what that industry did during that time period to facilitate capital formation is it said, we're going to go radical transparency. Okay? This was Bill Marriott and then Steve Baum back at Hilton were the two that said, I don't care anymore about what I think my proprietary room night information. I just don't care because I cannot get a loan and I, my lenders are defaulting me. I'm going to just send in every night, every room, every rate by whatever we think the right information to a third party, which happened to be STR. Genius in hindsight, because the hospitality business is a highly cyclical business tied to the economic cycle. It should trade like a cyclical industrial at six times cash flow. It doesn't, it trades like real estate. And that creates huge multiples relative to something that's just particularly tied to discipline because, in my view, it's a radically transparent industry. It's time for that happen in our industry. And we have NIC MAP Vision, we have NIC. And now we're facing a credit crisis on top of COVID-19 on top, you know, all of the challenges that we've just worked our way through. Now we have a credit crisis. And so this is the time to be, I believe, to be radically transparent and that'll help us get through this faster and be better as an industry as credit formation is resolved.

Beth Mace: (32:13)
Right. So I agree there needs to be some behavioral changes of operators and others.

Kurt Read: (32:19)
And investors and lenders.

Beth Mace: (32:20)
Yeah, exactly.

Kurt Read: (32:21)
Everybody.

Beth Mace: (32:21)
To be able to be more transparent on data, such as our favorite chart of accounts.

Kurt Read: (32:29)
I'm a fan of a standard chart of account, but we're going to lick that by the end of this year, by the way. So we're going to do that.

Beth Mace: (32:37)
Okay. So I want to go back to your comments again about your true statements and your false statements. So did you go bungee jumping with your wife on your honeymoon?

Kurt Read: (32:48)
Heck, no. I am so scared of heights, Beth. There is no way anyone would get me on a bridge or whatever and have me jump off but my wife did try. And I said, you're outta your mind dear. There's no way I'm doing that.

Beth Mace: (33:02)
Even in those new days of marriage, huh? She couldn't get you to do it.

Kurt Read: (33:04)
No, you would think I would be foolish enough but I'm too scared of heights There's no way I'd do that

Beth Mace: (33:10)
All right. So what did you do with sheep related to Rupert Murdoch?

Kurt Read: (33:15)
I embarked on a letter writing campaign when I was 12 to Rupert Murdoch. I lived in London at the time and I was fascinated by him. And so I wrote him a letter like twice a year and I said, I want to work for you, I want to work for you. I want to come to Australia, love Australia. So in between my sophomore and junior year in college, he wrote me a letter and it was like three sentences. If you can show up in Sydney, Australia on this date, you have a job.

Beth Mace: (33:51)
Oh.

Kurt Read: (33:51)
Signed Rupert. So I got my ass to Sydney, excuse my French, and I ended up working on his sheep station called Bwenock in New South Wales for two months. Really. And then I went to work for his newspaper. I worked at the Brisbane Sun and I worked for the Sydney Paper. I herded sheep. I had a motorcycle and I had a sheep dog and all that cool stuff. Oh, and the other cool thing was he let me fly on the cargo plane that delivered the newspapers. You know, newspapers are printed like around midnight, one o'clock. So in Australia's a big country, right? It's the size of the continental United States and there's no people in it. So papers get flown all over the place. So I would sit in the jump seat and land at some cargo airport at four in the morning and then figure out how to get around. It was a great experience.

Beth Mace: (34:52)
Wow, that sounds fantastic. Okay, so in wrapping up, is there anything else you'd like to share with our audience about yourself, your career, senior housing, considerations going forward?

Kurt Read: (35:05)
I would just like to close with, I think we're all very fortunate to work in an industry where you can give back to our nation's elders at the same time as have a rewarding career and build success for yourself, and also make money. I mean, it's an industry that has proven over time that you can make great returns if you do it prudently. So I think we have a hopeful opportunity in front of us to do well and to do good.

Beth Mace: (35:39)
That's great. Thanks so much for your time, Kurt. And again, thank you for all you do for the industry and for NIC and just broadly the industry. So thank you.

Kurt Read: (35:48)
No, thank, thank you, Beth. You're the best example that anybody could be following. So that's the best takeaway people should have is follow Beth Mace's.

Beth Mace: (35:58)
Oh, you're making me blush. All right, thanks very much. All right. Bye now.