NIC Chats Podcast with Sean Kelly

Lisa McCracken (00:03): 

Hi everyone. Welcome to the NIC Chats podcast. My name is Lisa McCracken. I'm the head of research and analytics with NIC. Very excited to have today with us, Sean Kelly, the president, CEO of Front Porch, who I've known for many years. Thank you for carving time out of your busy schedule, Sean, to spend time with me and our NIC audience who listens to these podcasts. 

Sean Kelly (00:28): 

Well, thank you, Lisa. It's my pleasure. Like I think every one of us that's working in this space right now, there is nothing other than a busy schedule. This time of year, my wife would tell me that there is not a single person paying attention that doesn't have a busy schedule. So, that's right. 

Lisa McCracken (00:49): 

That's 

Sean Kelly (00:50): 

All good. That's right. 

Lisa McCracken (00:51): 

I guess better than the alternative. So, Sean, I was thinking about when I first met you. I've been with NIC a little over a year, was with Ziglar for a decade, and I'm pretty sure it was during my Holleran days. For the benefit of our listeners, I would love for you to share a little bit about how you got into the industry. I always think it's interesting 'cause sometimes it's a crooked path about how people got into the industry, and it's not always this nice linear, "Hey, I want to grow up and be in the senior living business." And I know you're doing some work around all that too. Can you share a little bit about how you got to where you are? 

Sean Kelly (01:35): 

For sure. I've thought about this a lot and been asked this quite a bit. There are very few straight lines. I can think of a few young folks who might have it, but I'll start with maybe not how I got into it, but why I was predisposed to it, Lisa. It goes back to when I was a kid. There are traditional stories around how people get in—it's grandparents or something happened with someone directly related to a person. But in my case, the story goes that my brother Peter and I had a "mom and apple pie" upbringing. Unfortunately, in our formative years, as can happen in life, our parents got divorced. 

Sean Kelly (02:22): 

So, we were in fourth and sixth grade, and my dad moved us very close to his parents, near where he grew up. We spent much of our growing up years—late grammar school, adolescence, middle school, high school, and beyond—not just close to our grandparents but often completely immersed in their lives. 

In my case, my grandmother, my dad's mom, was from the town where they lived. She was incredibly social and kind in every way—whether at church, schools, or the neighborhood. She had a lot of friends and family around her. As the story goes, on Tuesdays, she would have her friends and some family members come over to get their hair done. 

Sean Kelly (03:13): 

In my grandparents' laundry room on the first floor, there was one of those old-fashioned hair dryers that looks like a spaceship. Oh, I know. The big chair with the spaceship-like dryer. There was a woman, whom I know well, who would come in and do their hair. 

I’d often be there, watching TV in this big kitchen while everyone was smoking, drinking, getting their hair done, and talking. This was the seventies, so smoking indoors was common. I noticed I was always curious about what they were drinking. They were drinking highballs in these glasses, which were a different color from the milk, orange juice, or Coke I was drinking. At some point, I asked, and my grandmother would always say, "Oh, we're just having some booze." 

Sean Kelly (04:02): 

They wanted me to feel a part of what they were doing so much that they made me my own "booze." My version, to create that brownish color, was made of Coca-Cola and Tropicana orange juice. They invited me in, and I was just one of the gang from the time I was a young kid. 

In that same house, my grandfather, my grandmother's husband, was the doctor in their town. He was one of the last doctors to do house calls. If you've seen Field of Dreams, my grandfather bore a striking resemblance to Moonlight Graham, or Doc Graham. He carried the bag, wore a trench coat, and had a commanding presence. He was also incredibly generous and kind. 

Sean Kelly (04:54): 

In that same house where my brother and I spent a lot of time, my dad's younger siblings had mostly moved out. We would be with my grandparents, having events with their friends, but my grandfather would also reach out to patients who didn’t have a way forward, a network, or a place to live. There were more than a handful of his patients and their relatives who lived in that house for periods of time, literally lived there. 

If they didn’t live there permanently or only stayed for a while, they’d often come back for Thanksgiving or Christmas. It was amazing. It wasn’t unusual for me, at 12 years old, to be sitting around talking to someone about what he thought it was like coming out of the Battle of the Bulge. 

Sean Kelly (05:47): 

Wow. Or what it was like to be a young professional woman working in the forties and fifties. That was always in me. Once I got exposed to senior living, just by chance, I was working for a construction manager, got introduced to development, and was very lucky to have been given a chance to meet and work with Avery Rockefeller and Doug Powell. 

I really got close to what this business was because it’s not about building buildings or transactions. And, God knows, Lisa, it’s not about everyone’s stereotype of what a nursing home is. There’s a lot more to be said about that. I quickly discovered what senior living at its best could be through the eyes, brains, actions, and generosity of Avery and Doug. 

Sean Kelly (06:45): 

I was taken by the idea that this is a lifestyle my grandparents, especially my grandmother, would have thrived in. But they wouldn’t have had the foggiest idea it even existed. The rest is history. 

I was very fortunate to be around some amazing people. I did a lot of work with retirement living services and had an itch to get close to a provider. I was very fortunate to have John Diffy as one of my many mentors, and I still have him. Judy Braun, our Chief Operating Officer, taught me more about human connection in operations than almost anyone I’ve met. Even Bob Kramer has been incredibly generous with me over the years, and I’ve learned a lot from him. 

Like most, I came to this field by accident, a crooked path. But it’s very clear to me that I’m doing the work I’m supposed to be doing. 

Lisa McCracken (07:48): 

That is so awesome. I would’ve loved to have met your grandparents. They sound like fascinating people. What I appreciate about this sector is the opportunity for personal connection and living your life story in many ways. I think we need to continue doing a better job of talking about that because it can be a very fulfilling sector. 

Go ahead, you were going to say... 

Sean Kelly (08:13): 

No, I agree with you. There’s a lot of discussion around where we are going, and that personal connection or personal connectivity—purpose mining—is fundamental to what drives a person, especially an older person. I think it needs to be at the top of our minds when we consider the kinds of experiences we hope to provide, nourish, and foster when inviting people into the communities or services we offer. 

Lisa McCracken (08:48): 

Well, I think that's a good segue into what I want to spend a few minutes on—the customer or consumer, whatever term you use. We've been talking about the baby boomers forever, and they’re here now, in some communities more than others. We've talked a lot about how they have different needs and preferences, and how we need to adapt. 

I’d love to know your thoughts. Fundamentally, do you think they are a different cohort and customer than what we’ve served in the past? Are we prepared? Are we ready? If not, what needs to evolve for us to stay relevant? 

One of the things I worry about is that when we talk about the demographic wave, we may get complacent and assume we can prop up our feet because there’s a large number of seniors with the ability to pay who will come to our doors. I’d love for you to share your thoughts on what you see in this consumer. 

Sean Kelly (09:52): 

Sort of Yeah. Good luck with that. A brain dump. I mean, that's 

Lisa McCracken (09:56): 

For the next two hours. 

Sean Kelly (09:57): 

It’s a lot of fairly empty stuff in there. I’m starting to replace some Seinfeld trivia with other relevant things, Lisa. But yes, the boomers are different. We've been saying "the boomers are different" for 20 years. 

They're not different from everybody, though, en masse. We’ve heard that the baby boomers are going to be more demanding. They will demand transparency, a seat at the table, and input into what you are doing as a provider. 

They have an expectation that they’re not just living in a community or building, but joining a movement. Many recognize that if they choose a community—whether it’s bricks and mortar or another type—they need to know not only what they might get from it but also what they might give to it. 

They want to know the point of view of that community, what measures for advocacy, volunteerism, and other aspects of living a full life can be fueled by it. These are the considerations they weigh when deciding whether to join. 

Sean Kelly (11:03): 

At the end of the day, there are many people who’ve been around the block long before the baby boomers came of age. I was lucky to have been exposed early on to the notion that none of this works unless we listen. 

When I was growing up in this business, learning about what it takes to develop a community that attracts people to live, grow, and spend their lives, the lesson always emphasized was this: you have to pay attention to what people say they want. What’s important to them? How does that manifest in the programs, services, and properties you provide? 

Sean Kelly (11:49): 

If you aren’t willing to spend the time to listen, you’re very likely to deliver something irrelevant to the market you hope to serve. I think of Kendal, an amazing organization born from Quaker values. At their core, these values insist that in every single person, there is something to be honored, something to be heard, something to be sought after. 

That’s always resonated with me. It’s been lifeblood for Kendal, and I’ve had the chance to interact with people on the provider side through my Kendal affiliations, as well as those who’ve chosen that lifestyle over many years. Fast forward to today, and here I am at Front Porch, where the game is changing all around us. 

Sean Kelly (12:39): 

We have amazing people on the provider side who are inclined to demonstrate respect and invite questions, commentary, advice, and counsel across our populations of residents and program participants. 

That said, there are also folks who grip the arms of their chairs tightly because inviting all that dialogue and engagement can feel like, and sometimes result in, a loss of control or chaos. 

To me, engagement means creating venues where residents, staff, future residents, and future consumers have an opportunity to learn about what you’re doing, why you’re doing it, and are genuinely sought for their counsel, advice, and what matters to them. 

Sean Kelly (13:45): 

Those are table stakes. We have to know how to do that because, yes, Lisa, the bricks and mortar matter. The quality of the programming matters. The cost matters. Where it is matters. Whether it’s up to date matters. All of that matters. 

So does the environment into which you are inviting people to become a member of any community associated with you. It’s changed. What used to be 10 to 20% of the crowd we served is now the 80 to 90% of the crowd we intend to serve. 

Lisa McCracken (14:22): 

Yeah, I appreciate you. Intuitively, I’ve known that, and you can feel it in certain organizations versus others. But I’ve never heard someone detail it as much in terms of not just what you can get by coming here, but what you can give. 

I do think it’s easier to stay in your own home these days—if you can afford it. We’ll talk a little about the affordability piece. But where are we positioning ourselves? Not just to help people have the best care, but to help them be their best selves. 

Bob Krim has talked about how we can’t sell sickness and care. We’ve got to focus on things like WellSpan, not just lifespan. Where can people come to be a part of something that helps them thrive? This isn’t necessarily a period of decline, even though that often serves as a trigger for joining our communities. 

That consumer engagement piece feels and looks different, and it can be a lot of work. It’s cultural. And as you mentioned, control is a factor. It’s a different business model and mindset that not every organization has embraced. 

Sean Kelly (15:38): 

Yeah, for sure not. A couple of things. First, the whole notion of folks staying in their homes or not—I’d say the idea of community, especially since COVID, has been regenerated to mean more than just being on a campus, in a building, or among specific people in a specific place. 

I think there’s an incredible place for us. We have both an opportunity and an obligation to leverage our expertise in creating community—spaces where people have a genuine chance to connect with one another and discover things together that they might not have discovered on their own. 

Sean Kelly (16:26): 

And in those spaces, people can do different things in their lives—whether for the wider world, for themselves, or for the people they care about. 

As an example, we have loads of social connection programs and learning programs, both on the market rate and affordable sides, as well as in between. I think these are important exemplars, as much as they are also seeding the ground for the kinds of programming we need to associate with our market rate communities in the future. 

We’re working on a property in Los Gatos, California. It’s in an incredibly wealthy marketplace, and it has been incredibly difficult to secure entitlements, but they seem to be coming together. We’ve got this beautiful piece of property up on the hill. 

Sean Kelly (17:15): 

We were lucky to have just received an incredible endorsement from the local planning commission, which you almost never get. Part of why they offered this endorsement was because, for the last year and a half, we’ve been living out our promise that what we build there will be a linchpin in the greater community, not just a community unto itself. 

In fact, we secured some property along the main street that gives us direct access to the walkable community of the Los Gatos Town Center. We intend to build what we describe as a center for health and wellbeing, designed to deliver many of the enriching services and programs typically found in a high-end CCRC, but extend them out into the wider community. 

Sean Kelly (18:05): 

I think it serves multiple purposes. It helps us expand our mission, recognizes the opportunity to diversify revenue, and builds a pipeline to the community. It also invites people to join programs they love. 

The last thing it does is help people who might never consider moving into a bricks-and-mortar community discover that life, especially as they age, can hold more than they might have guessed. These efforts, done well, scaled, and repeated, will be incredibly important. 

However, they will rely on scale, sophistication, resources, great partners, and finding new ways to source revenue to provide these services to a broader segment of the market. That ties into the question of what healthcare really is and where those $5 trillion go. Might some of that be reallocated to bigger and better things, enabling people to spend their time, money, and effort on improving their lives rather than trying to fix things that are not easily fixable? 

Lisa McCracken (19:30): 

Right. I appreciate that you touched on partnerships and the community-integrated model, where you’re not just an isolated entity within a greater community. The benefits are significant—for the workforce, the residents, and the broader community. 

I’d like to talk more about the power of partnerships. At the end of the day, expanding the continuum of services, what you do, and where you do it has clear benefits. But we can’t always be the end-all, be-all for everyone. Scale and sophistication increasingly matter, as things are becoming more and more complicated. 

What role do you see for creative partnerships in our space? Do you have any observations about what might sometimes get in the way of organizations exploring these partnerships? Could it tie back to the "control" factor you mentioned earlier? 

Sean Kelly (20:34): 

Yeah, well, now you’re leading the witness. 

Lisa McCracken (20:37): 

Don't need to go down any case studies, 

Sean Kelly (20:38): 

But, let’s see. The opportunity is, I think you’re right. For us, it’s been important to ask: what is it that we really do at the core of everything? 

I think, as my colleague Kari Olson, president of our Center for Innovation and Wellbeing, has reminded me over and over, our core business is community—generating community in all its forms, wherever it may be. It doesn’t require buildings. 

That aligns with one of the key values I was brought up with, reinforced during my time at RLS, and further clarified during my time at Kendal. 

Sean Kelly (21:25): 

I think now is the time to amplify this even more. In community, there’s what you want to do and what you need. Among those needs, we excel at providing socialization, care coordination, opportunities to create venues, and acting as amazing conveners. We do food, hospitality, and all that. 

However, we don’t necessarily do things like a PACE program. We don’t provide acute care, primary care, or insurance—except for long-term care and life care insurance reform, which we do handle. But when it comes to global risk or traditional healthcare insurance, we don’t address those areas. 

If we had a blank slate to deliver transformative products and programs for the future that would be appealing... 

Sean Kelly (22:23): 

Necessary and not just welcome, but enthusiastically embraced—let's build that out. Let’s try to understand what our role might be in that transformational product. Then, identify what else we need and name the handful of other components required. 

We’re fortunate in this time and place within our sector, Lisa, to not be alone in recognizing that the game has to change. We must deliver services and programs that come from the heart and do so in a way that limits or eliminates waste. 

We need to be hyper-efficient while also investing in human connection, relationship building, listening, and engagement. These elements must come along for the ride. 

Sean Kelly (23:15): 

We’ve been talking about residents, consumers, or customers, but I’d submit that the same applies to staff—the people we hope to retain, grow with, and gain. 

We need to think differently about what it means to grow older, as we all are, and demonstrate respect that invites perspectives and values them as contributions that can make us better. It’s about more than what one person might think or offer. 

If we’re not doing this with our teams, we risk dissociating them from a professional career where growth opportunities exist. 

Lisa McCracken (23:58): 

Right. I want to spend a few minutes on affordability. As you mentioned earlier, you work with everything from higher-end entry fee CCRCs to affordable housing. 

You know that NIC has focused a lot on the middle market and that group in the middle. You could argue that we need more of all options to meet demand. But do you have any insights on how we can do better as an industry and provide more options for middle-income older adults? 

I’m not expecting you to have the magic formula or secret sauce figured out, but if you have any pearls of wisdom or insights on this, I’d love to hear them. 

Sean Kelly (24:44): 

I do think so. When I first came to Front Porch, and when I first arrived at Kendal, I introduced myself to people by saying, “You can ask me anything, and I’ll answer. If I know, I’ll tell you. If I don’t, I’ll let you know I don’t know, but I might have an opinion—which is subject to change.” 

I feel the same way about this. I think the idea of unbundled services, delivered to provide care coordination in different ways without all the accoutrements of a high-end or even medium-level CCRC, is part of the answer. 

Sean Kelly (25:36): 

It really acknowledges that, as human beings, we seek purpose, social connection, and one another. In doing so, we often find ways to enrich our lives in ways we might not have otherwise. 

I think there’s a lot to explore in the population health strategy around social determinants that might help us find our way. These strategies show that there are ways to support people’s lives as they age that aren’t as wildly expensive or difficult to understand and access as the traditional healthcare or sick care system. 

Continuing on that path and becoming a more relevant part of the movement toward real value-based care models is essential. Whether through partnerships or finding ways to access payer sources that are as progressive as we aim to be, I think this approach holds a lot of potential. 

Sean Kelly (26:47): 

It’s really important. On the real estate side, housing matters, environments matter. As much as we need to build service and programming hubs that can be agnostic to a building or greater community where folks live, we also know that being associated with a community condensed into a building structure makes service delivery easier. 

It creates economies of scale that are harder to achieve in a wider community, even with technology. And people enjoy it—so long as they can afford it and understand the value proposition for them. 

In some parts of the senior living sector, we need to move past the idea of giving everyone everything they might ever want. It’s hard to change that model, but it’s necessary. 

Lisa McCracken (27:46): 

We're very good at the service creep. 

Sean Kelly (27:47): 

Yeah, and I say the same about the square footage creep, the granite countertop creep, and all that. But there is a middle space. 

The other risk, in my opinion, is going all the way backward and assuming that any otherwise defunct or not useful building is just plain good enough for an older person. 

Sean Kelly (28:15): 

There are plenty of buildings that can be brought forward and made amazing. But there are also many where, just because they’re the right price or in the right spot, we risk overlooking respect for the person. 

On the middle market side, we at Front Porch need to do more work to mine the sensibilities and psychographics of that middle marketplace. We need to find the sweet spot between “just plain good enough” and the glitz and glamour of the CCRCs we’ve traditionally built. 

We’re working on that, with some cool opportunities in our current markets and others we’re not in yet. I welcome it—that’s another area for partnership. We don’t have to be the leaders in multifamily homebuilding, but we can be leaders in supporting community. That’s really our work. 

Lisa McCracken (29:18): 

Right. I want to wrap up by noting that we’re recording this at the end of 2024, which feels surreal. I remember when we were celebrating Y2K—it seems like a lifetime ago, which it was. 

As we enter 2025, is there anything you’d like to share about your outlook for the next year? What do you see as goals for us in 2025? 

Sean Kelly (29:46): 

Well, we talked a lot about the consumer, potential residents, and different markets, but we didn’t spend much time on labor or workforce leadership. I think those areas are deeply connected. 

For 2025, I know this is important to us at Front Porch. We adopted a new strategic plan in July of this year. Among our priorities, we want to build a culture where everybody matters. We aspire to this and want to ensure we have the support systems in place to achieve it. 

Sean Kelly (30:29): 

We just hired a Chief Culture and Community Officer, which I’m super proud of, and that will become an entire division. This is not lip service to that work. We are committed to driving that culture. 

We also need to focus on performance, leveraging scale and sophistication to deliver systems and programs that maximize every penny we invest, because those investments need to span all areas. 

Additionally, we’ll continue to focus on growth through our Center for Innovation and Wellbeing. The Center is actively involved in and excited about applications of AI, from back-of-house systems that improve operations to front-of-house delivery systems. For example, our partnership with Embodied Labs is transforming how people think about meeting and understanding others. 

Sean Kelly (31:21): 

And how they might deliver care, service, and programs to that person. All of that is exciting, but we’re also focusing on leadership. That’s where I want to leave off for 2025. 

At Front Porch, we’re rethinking leadership to align with the changing expectations of the role. Leadership is not just administrative work, though it includes that. It’s not just social and relational work, but it is that too. It’s not only strategic work, but it must be. Leadership is sophisticated, high-level work. 

We want to shine a light on what this work entails, the purpose people find in it, and the professionalism it requires. We’re focusing on providing the means and methods for people to climb that ladder. As we consolidate, much like healthcare systems did 20 years ago, pay in this profession is rising to where it must be. 

Sean Kelly (32:25): 

That’s all amazing and important. We’re building relationships with colleges and universities and doing a lot of great work. But in 2025, another key element of leadership we are demanding of ourselves is to bring a different, bigger voice into the world—beyond just ourselves. 

We are all on board with the changes that need to happen, and we want to step confidently into this next era. But the reality is, all the cool things we do, all the inspiration we generate from our hearts and minds, won’t have the impact it can—or must—unless we stimulate and participate in changing how the world thinks about and discusses what this all means. 

Sean Kelly (33:16): 

Until we live in a world where people are not just tuned in but truly inspired by what’s possible in their own lives as they age, we have work to do. It’s about being inspired by what’s still left to discover in life, while also acknowledging that as life goes on, things change, things get harder, and we lose people and abilities. 

Even so, there’s still the possibility to do more—for others and for ourselves. We need to change the narrative, and I know it’s already happening. That’s a whole other story, and we have some specific things in the works to help drive that change. 

Lisa McCracken (34:01): 

Be another, that's a future podcast change. How about that? 

Sean Kelly (34:03): 

I’ll tell you, that’s truly one of the reasons I went out to California—the possibility of standing on a bigger platform and getting louder about some of this was definitely part of it. 

For all of us, that’s a clarion call, and it’s something we’re truly focusing on in 2025. We’ve always been working on it, but it’s becoming more real as we move forward. 

Lisa McCracken (34:28): 

Thank you, Sean. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and your time. And thank you to everyone listening to this NIC Chats podcast. If you want to access other esteemed guests like Sean, you can visit our website and check them out. 

Thank you again, Sean. I appreciate your time with us today. 

Sean Kelly (34:44): 

Lisa, thank you so much. What a pleasure. And so good to see you as always. Yeah, likewise. 

Lisa McCracken (34:48): 

Alright, thank you.